Supporting your immune system this winter

WILD SESSIONS PODCAST

Immunity

with Jenna Macciochi

Henrietta: Here we are at episode three of wild sessions. And my guest today is the fantastic Jenna Macciochi, who is a immunologist and incredible woman in her field. She's also the author of Immunity, The Science of Staying Well. And I'm really excited to have this conversation because of the times that we're living in right now and the conversations that happening around immunity, immune support. And I think, there's a lot of misunderstanding about a, what the immune system is, but also when you hear terms like boosting and the immune system or supporting the immune system, what does that actually mean and actually is that wedded in science or not? So today is a really exciting conversation and I'm really looking forward to talking to Jenna.

Henrietta: So Jenna, welcome to Wild Sessions and ordinarily we'd be sitting around our kitchen table, but today we are doing a virtual kitchen table with me in my study, and it looks like you in your study. So welcome virtually to.....to the podcast.

Henrietta: Um,

Jenna: Oh, thank you.

Henrietta: You're a top tier guest for me, because as I mentioned, it's not only because of the times that we're living in, but you really are a voice of authority in the area that you work in, and I have a huge amount of respect for you as do many others. So just by way of background to the listeners, you are an immunologist and also a lecturer at The University of Sussex and you are also very passionate about that sort of 360 degree approach to wellbeing and supporting the immune system or immunology. And so therefore that's illustrated by you are also a fitness instructor I understand, and also have a passionate about nutrition and lifestyle interventions as well and how that affects the immune system. And you're also author of Immunity, The Science of Staying Well. So, a huge amount that we can talk about today and welcome.

Jenna: No, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Yes. I'm pleased to be here.

Henrietta: Let's start a little bit to understand a little bit about you and, and how you got into this specific field of immunology.

Jenna: Yeah. I mean, it's quite sort of serendipitous, but I grew up in Scotland on a farm in the countryside and we grew a lot of our own stuff on the farm. And my mum had this belief that, you know, everything could be solved at the dinner table. And I guess I was curious about that and I, on a farm, you see the circle of life, don't you, you see everything. Um, and I guess I kind of had this interest in what makes the body go wrong. Why do people get sick? And I just remember it quite vividly when I was very young, being really interested in this. And when I was researching what I wanted to do, when I was leaving school, the field of immunology just seemed to kind of fit the bill. It was like understanding the world around us in terms of our health and poor health and disease. And I kind of fell in love with the subject and I've never really looked back.

Henrietta: And interestingly with a background in farming or living on a farm, it's also the connection that synergy between, essentially the immune system of the soil and of the earth and the planet, the environment around us and that connection with our own wellbeing and our own resilience of our immune system and ability to be able to adapt to infection. And so that's really interesting, I didn't know that about you; that's that's fascinating. And so when often we talk about the immune system, which was obviously getting a lot of air time at the moment, particularly, it's quite easy to think that the immune system is a kind of separate system in the body, and actually it's not that is it, it's a ubiquitous network of processes and cells and functions that actually infiltrate absolutely every single function in our body. So can you tell us on a very top line level, because I know it's a complex beast and an incredible thing and we're still understanding it, but can you tell me a little bit from a top line level, what exactly is the immune system and how does it affect our health?

Jenna: Yeah, for me, the immune system's really this all embracing all encompassing wellness system. It's as indispensable as your heart or your lungs to you being alive. And it's also very mysterious. I mean, it's found in every part of your body, it's not one thing, although we often speak about it, like it's one thing, but it's the white blood cells that are swimming around your body, but it's also congregating at the barriers to your body, so you have loads of immune cells, immune tissue, immune molecules that are lining your lungs, for example, or your gut and your skin and all those areas that could be vulnerable to things in your environment or microbiome is part of our immune system. It forms part of those defenses to the outside world, and it's the barriers to your body themselves. So the skin, the airways, the gut which, even though they're inside us, those are actually tubes that are exposed to the outside world. So that means they have a certain vulnerability and your immune cells and tissues and organs are there to protect those surfaces. So it's really this kind of huge galaxy of different components scattered all over your body that are working collaboratively together every minute of every day. But we only really think about it when we get sick. When we get those uncomfortable symptoms of being unwell.

Henrietta: Well, I think this is it, it sometimes loses its time in the sun as a hero because it is working so hard all the time, and you know, there's almost not one….I love that term galaxy, I think that's beautiful, it beautifully illustrates that for me, very visually... but there is almost not one condition or disease within the body that is not involved in the immune system. Everything involves the immune system, whether you've got acne or you've got hormonal conditions, or you've got…..you know, I think it's sometimes misunderstood as almost just for Christmas, just for that winter season when you're fighting off seasonal niggles, and actually it needs that continual support. And when we're looking at our lifestyle and we're looking at our diet in the way that we live and we need to be having the health of the immune system at the forefront of that.

Jenna: Exactly. I like that, it's not just for Christmas. It's not just for infection. This was a big motivation actually for me to write the book because I was like, oh, we only ever think about it when you know, it's seasonal lurgie rolls around, but actually it's doing so many more amazing things than just fending off germs.

Henrietta: I don't know if you would agree with this, but I always say when it comes to supporting immunity, prevention is key it's there are so many steps before you experience the physical symptoms of feeling unwell or whether that's spottiness or whatever it might be before it presents physically, there's been a whole host of different things that been happening prior to that, and sometimes for years. So I would love to understand with your feet firmly within the scientific realm and everything being evidence-based about what you study and what you say. I would also like to understand how lifestyle has come into that conversation for you as well.

Jenna: Yeah. Well, I guess you could think of the immune system a bit like the brain. Both in its complexity, but also that it's a sensing system. So it's there constantly sensing what you're doing with your life, where you are, how you're feeling. And we have now abundant scientific evidence to show this, that even things like negative emotions when they are happening too long or too frequently; it's sending a signal to your immune system, that there's some kind of danger. It becomes primed and ready for action. Also the environment that we're living in. So the part of the world that we're living in, it's sensing maybe you're exposed to lots of pollution. Maybe you spend a lot of time in nature, and these are all inputs into what's shaping your immune system and how it's going to respond. And I think that for me, when I started to, really dive into the scientific literature around that, it kind of opened up a whole new world of understanding if I, the system that we take for granted and, and only think about during the winter lurgie season. And that's when you can start to think, well, what inputs am I giving to my immune system in my day-to-day life? And I tend to sort of break it down into the different areas of lifestyle and diets. And you can think of what nutrients am I putting into my body. And there's a lot of discussion around things like vitamin C and zinc, which of course are critical to our immune system, but all of the essential micronutrients, the vitamins and minerals, if we have a deficiency or we're running low in any of those, then that would effectively stifle the ability of the immune system to do its job. So we need to be making sure we're, we're giving all those essential nutrients to our immune system, but also we need to make sure we're nurturing the microbes that live in our guts, because one of the biggest things that's come out of the literature in the past 10, 15 years, is that these microbes in our gut are actually the key educators of our immune system. And this is happening early in life, when we start to become populated with microbes, and they're the training ground for our immune cells. There's so many immune cells and tissues in the gut and they're interacting with these good microbes. And if we're not feeding those microbes properly, we're losing them. And there's even evidence that over generations of not providing those food fibres that they so enjoy, that we start to lose some of these really important populations of gut microbes. So that's a kind of another aspect of the diet inputs that I think is often forgotten and we get, everything gets simplified down to just things like vitamin C in winter, which of course there's a role for, but I think we have to broaden the lens a little bit.

Henrietta: That's really interesting about that sort of priming that's happening or that toning that's happening right from a very early age, because also what we understand is that even in utero, a fetus is developing its adaptation processes according to its environment, including the immune system. So even at that point, you think that at that time was, was a sterile time in terms of that bacterial diversity and exposure, but actually we realize now it's not, and that's all part of the priming part with your immune system as well, isn't it?

Jenna: Yes.

Henrietta: And you've alluded already to the impact that stress can have on the immune system, and again, I think stress can be a kind of another misunderstood word and that it gets all the negative press.

Jenna: Yes, yeah.

Henrietta: And actually a bit of stress is really important because stress actually works as a sort of tonifier, doesn't it, and build resilience in all aspects of our life in our wellbeing, but particularly around the immune system, and there is that sweet spot between it being too much and you being in this sort of hyper arousal state for want of a better word, um, that can negatively affect the immune system too. So how, how do you feel about stress management techniques that would also impact on the resilience or adaptability of the immune system?

Jenna: Yeah, that's a huge piece of the sort of puzzle of our overall kind of immune balance, if you like, because as I said, this immune system is a sensing system, which means it's sensing how you feel and we only have one physiological stress response, uh, no matter what is causing that stress, whether it's you're about to be hit by a bus and you have to run to safety, or you just have too many work deadlines or problems in a relationship….the same stress chemistry is going to be pumping around your body. And as you said, I think there's some comfort in learning that we developed this physiological stress response, not to make ourselves ill, but actually to motivate ourselves to safety. So it's supposed to be short-lived motivational type of response to keep us well. But I do feel like the modern world that we live in, has just gone a bit mismatched, and sadly, we seem to spend more of our time in this sort of stress fight or flight response than we do in a state of relaxation. And it's not designed to be a response that's always pedal to the metal and that's where things start to break down and go wrong. And we know that some of the stress molecules that are involved in that response, so things like cortisol and adrenaline, our immune cells have receptors for these molecules on their surface, which means they can respond to those chemicals in our body. So they're directly able to alter their behavior based on how stressed we are. And generally when you're stressed and your body's trying to get you to safety, it's triaging the energy away from other things like your immune system. So we tend to find that immune responses are a bit subdued when we're very stressed and that's when we're more vulnerable to infection. And you know, I'm a person who has held my hands up and said that stress is something I have often struggled with. And I think it's just that challenge of finding a balance of being a mom to my children, having my job, with its sort of peaks and troughs of busy times. And so I've spent a lot of time on my own journey, looking at how to manage stress, and I do think that I would recommend to anyone who might be feeling the negative impact of stress in their life to just go on a bit of a voyage of discovery. Because one thing that I found is it's sometimes not helpful to read things like, oh, start meditation practice because when you're already very stressed, the thought of starting to meditate is actually quite stressful in itself. That might come further down the line. You need more real time tools to get you there to empty that overflowing stress cup, and for me, it's definitely getting away from my computer screen because a lot of my work is based around that. It's getting into nature, which we, we now have such a strong body of evidence that being in nature, uh, the widening of your gaze when you're looking at not at a close-up screen, but looking more broadly at the horizon, it's sending inputs to your brain that it's safe, you can relax. And then this is then translated to your immune system. I think that's a really important tool. Exercise, just finding joy in little things, so making small parts of your day from a habit to a ritual. So that afternoon cup of tea, just kind of elevating that to more of a ritual where you do things much more mindfully and you spend much more time tasting or smelling, or just having a time without your phone or your computer. I think that can be really good kind of little lifesaver in your day. And then there's a whole host of supplements that I think can be quite useful. So I like L-theanine, which is a, an amino acid that's quite relaxing. Um, it's found in green tea. It's a good alternative to coffee if you're already feeling a bit anxious and it doesn't make you drowsy, so you can take it during the day or also at night. And then things like ashwagandha, which has a growing body of evidence now around its benefits on, on the stress response.

Henrietta: Fantastic. You've given such a holistic joined up body of advice there. A lot of them come down to...just listening, thinking; it's almost going back to what you said right at the beginning about how you grew up. You grew up with that connection. It's not just woo wah now to say, go for a walk, it's good for you. It's rooted in science. There is significant body of research now to show that actually being in nature is, is really good on so many different levels and particularly around the immune system. So it's connection to nature, but also the other things that you're talking about building in habits that you have making them into ritual, it's about connecting to yourself as well. Isn't it? And actually, that can be incredibly grounding and actually give a little bit more. I think if we don't have those in our daily life, then we can, it can be very easy to be overwhelmed. Um, we lose perspective of what we're worried about. And, and so these are, these are brilliant and really practical as well, really easy things for us to implement. And I would echo what you're saying about the terms like meditation, you know, often makes people want to throw a book at the wall. It's it's, you know, when you're in that space where you can hardly find, it feels like you can hardly find five minutes in your day, the things that actually turn people off. And it's really simple actually. It's just change that word to stillness or to quiet, or as you say, connection. Yeah. Doing one thing at one time, because now we've become this, this, this global society of multitasking, which I don't think has many benefits. Um, if they're done a long-term and regularly, I mean, a bit of multitasking can be really shaping for, for the brain, but not to the level that we're doing it now.

Henrietta: Break

Henrietta: I just wanted to go back a few steps, because you spoke about the gut bacteria, and I just wanted to touch on the growing evidence around gut bacteria, the immune system and depression and anxiety, and how there is now a proven link between the level of inflammation in the body and a risk of depression or anxiety. Is that something you can just, kind of, go a little bit deeper into.

Jenna: Yeah, of course. So inflammation is one of the weapons that our immune system uses against germs. But again, like the stress response inflammation is only ever meant to be a short term action, so it's dealing with some invader that we don't want getting rid of some germ and then your body can go back to normal and sort of balance is restored, but sadly inflammation can be triggered inadvertently and can get a bit unruly and the gut is actually a huge source of inflammation in the body. I mean, when we eat a meal, we get a slight rise in inflammation in our blood, even if it's a very healthy meal, but it does mean that that interface with the gut microbes is very important to how well our guts is containing that inflammation or leading to the inflammation, being able to leak out into our system and I think, it's quite useful sometimes to think about how we feel when we're unwell. So if you've had a flu, maybe COVID or a horrible cold, you probably felt a bit socially withdrawn and you probably felt more tired than usual, but perhaps had trouble sleeping. You might have had changes to appetite. You might have felt a bit depressed and these feelings are because of inflammation in your body. Inflammation is acting on your brain and it's changing your behavior to make you do the behaviors that are going to get you well, as soon as possible. So feeling socially withdrawn and a bit depressed and tired means that you're not likely to go out and go see your friends and go do your normal activities because that wouldn't get you well, again, you need to rest, you need to be away from other people and not spread your germs. And we can think about that on a different level. So if you just have issues with your gut, um, uh, per diet, dysbiosis, which is an imbalance of the helpful microbes in your gut, then we can have this kind of low level inflammation emanating from the gut, and that can have an effect on our brains and change your behavior in a similar, but maybe more subtle way than when we're actually really sick with an infection. And these are known as sickness behaviors, and there's now evidence that people or a subset of people with clinical depression actually have raised inflammatory markers in their bloods and the benefit from anti-inflammatory interventions to reduce that. So whether it's using actual pharmaceutical grade drugs that reduce inflammation in the body, or by being put on things like a Mediterranean diet pattern, for example, which is felt to have lots of anti-inflammatory attributes to it by virtue of the abundant fruit and vegetables, fibre for the microbes, things like oily fish with the omega-3 fats, which are known to have anti-inflammatory properties in the body.

Henrietta: I think that's so fascinating because I think that perfectly illustrates how the immune system is associated with almost any imbalances happening in the body. And so in ways that a lot of people don't understand that if you're thinking about mental health, actually we need to be thinking, we might be looking at SSRI for example, but we know that inflammation can also change the way that our body responds to those SSRI. So, yeah. Uh, uh, selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors, which are a class of medication that is often prescribed to those with anxiety or with mild depression and actually how our levels of inflammation can sometimes affect how we respond to that. And so actually, if we're looking at supporting a patient with mild depression or anxiety, it may be that there are those other factors that you've spoken about need to come into that protocol as well, that supportive protocol. It's not just one dimensional, so I think that's beautifully illustrated that point. So, such a wealth of information you've shared. Thank you so very much. And I'm just wondering now, if you could, from all of the things that you've mentioned, if you could give three things, for somebody to implement into their every day on the understanding that prevention is key when it comes to preventing disease and general wellness in terms of looking after our mental health. What three things would you implement into your daily life to help that?

Jenna: That's a very good question. And it's something I think about a lot, because I think perhaps like many people, when I embarked on this exploration into this immune system that I was so fascinated about, I kind of didn't really know what to expect, but I guess I was looking for, you know, what are the really key things that are going to provide the magic bullet. And then after so many years of looking, I realized there are no magic bullets. So I would say that, you know, any kind of dis-ease infection, illness symptoms, they can be scary and unsettling, but by really understanding more about your immune system, my hope is that you get a new appreciation, not just for disease and illness, but you get some comfort that there are many things in your control that you can do to nurture your health and sort of alleviate some of the fear and anxiety that comes with illness or a fear of, of illness. And I think that, to do that we probably have to think about consistency. So we often only wait till we're in a situation of dis-ease or disease, unwell before we start to think of what could we do to fix ourselves. And actually the best thing that we can all start doing is just being very consistent every day, about those little small habits that get us on the journey to becoming, the best health that we could be. And it's about all those different little inputs, you know, the nature movement, the food that you're putting in your body, the thoughts that you're sending into your body, you know, all of those different things and doing little things every day, and that kind of builds your resistance. So when the inevitable bad day happens or life-changing moment or horrible illness comes along, you're already got a good grounding to deal with that. So I think consistency is sort of my first one, I guess

Henrietta: I just wanted to say that you just mentioned something at the end there that, you know, some people will think that if you have a, for want of a better phrase, a strong immune system that you don't get sick, and actually, it's not about that, it's about when you are exposed to infection, for example, viral infection or bacterial infection that your body responds to it in a very healthy, adaptable way in an appropriate fashion, which sometimes does mean you being sick, doesn't it, sometimes it does mean that you still get ill, but your recovery is strong. So I just wanted to make that point because some people think that that means that you never get ill, but actually that's not it.

Jenna: Yeah, I feel quite passionate about spreading the word that it's quite normal to get sick, unless you're not contacting any people at all, and you're, you know, live in a cave somewhere. It's like germs are something we've evolved with, and they spread when people get together. So, you know, it's part of life. It shouldn't be something that inhibits us from living a full life.

Henrietta: And that exposure is part of strengthening as well, isn't it, particularly when we, when we're younger, as you say, but I interrupted you. Sorry. So the first one is consistency, which is brilliant. I love that. Um, and then what about a couple more?

Jenna: This is something I, I started almost a year ago, you know, after I'd written the book, I was thinking, geez, the world around us is becoming more and more unhealthy. It's harder and harder to be healthy in an unhealthy world. And I think that what I started to consider was this act of self-compassion. So just being kind to yourself instead of using fear or guilt or shame to motivate yourself to better healthy habits. And there's actually quite a lot of scientific evidence to show that people who are taught self-compassion techniques or practice self-compassion regularly are actually able to see changes in their immune cell function in their body. Um, so there's tangible measurements that can be taken from people to show that their immune systems are improving when they're being kind to themselves. And I just sometimes think, why did it take me so long to realize that being kind to yourself, kind of opens up so much more to your world because you can buffer those hard times. You don't reach for the unhealthy habits and then spend the next three days feeling guilty and bad about the whole packet of biscuits you ate.

Henrietta: Oh, Jenna. I think that's a really, really beautiful point. We've almost forgotten the art of being gentle and compassionate. I love that. And we know as well that it's not just, I mean, it starts with us, doesn't it, and then actually what happens, the beauty of that is is that what happens is it then echoes out. It echoes out to the people that you touch, that compassion, that gentleness, that kindness, which then impacts very physiologically for them as well.

Jenna: Yeah. It just empowers you to embrace the challenges and the setbacks and the inevitable bad days, and sort of let go of the unhelpful things, because those are not good motivators and life is hard enough. As I said, the world around us, isn't geared up to make us healthy. So I think that for me, it's been quite liberating. It's not always easy, but I'm thinking, why are we not teaching this in school now to children?

Henrietta: And then your third, yeah.

Jenna: The third one, thinking about your overall diet pattern. We get a lot of hyper-focus on nutrients, on individual nutrients. Um, and actually now most of the data that's coming out, shows the overall pattern of your diet across the week, the month, the year, that's more telling of the healthfulness of your diet. And I think that's quite important because one bad meal does not bad health make. It's what you do most of the time that counts, not what you do all of the time. And I see a lot of people who get into a bit of a food prison where they're so caught up on trying to have this perfect diet, that the stress that's involved in that it's going to negate any of the healthful benefits of having this really healthy diet. And I think that, you know, again, it's just about being able to, to live your life in the happiest way, and that might mean going out with friends and eating foods that you might not normally eat, but it doesn't matter because that's one meal and the next day you go back to your usual pattern and it's that, that overall pattern, rather than hyper focusing on, on every meal and every nutrient that's much more liberating.

Henrietta: And that's such an empowering thing to say as well, because I think there is so much information. There's a sort of tsunami of information about what to eat and, and often, very much somebody focusing only on having avocado and toast for breakfast and only having...and actually it's not, food is so much, as you say so much more than that. It's about communing as well. It's about all the things that you've, you've spoken about. I absolutely, love that; what wisdom you bring, just incredible, singing from the same hymn sheet, it's been such, such a joy to listen to you. And just to recap on that, then that's, so you're saying consistency, compassion, and essentially moderation, which I really loved because you can apply those to; those are transferable terms, you can apply to everything and it's not, as you say, very prescriptive and, you know, make sure you have three tomatoes a day, and so I think that's, that's really, really helpful and, and I'm sure that that's going to resonate with a lot of the listeners. So Jenna, thank you so very, very much for sharing your incredible brain and your beautiful wisdom. That's been a really lovely conversation and I hope that we get to speak to you again, because I know that we've only scratched the surface of things that we could say. So I hope that there's going to be another conversation in the, in the running soon enough.

Jenna: Oh yes, I hope so, too. I’m a huge fan, obviously of Wild Nutrition so, always a pleasure to collaborate or do anything together, so thank you very much for having me.

Henrietta: My pleasure.