Creating new habits you can sustain

WILD SESSIONS PODCAST

A Sustainable Approach to Forming New Habits

with Alice Liveing

Henrietta: I have the pleasure of talking to the lovely Alice Liveing. Your background is as a personal trainer, but you've done many things, got incredibly popular blog and Instagram following. So helping thousands of women and men and young people with lifestyle and particularly exercise support, but you're also an author.

Alice: Yeah, I've written three books.

Henrietta: What I really love about your work, Alice, and I imagine really comes through with the books, is this very much holistic, joined up approach to exercise and wellbeing. And I'd love to know a little bit more about how you formed that ethos and how you came to do what you do in the style that you do it.

Alice: Yeah, absolutely. My ethos now is probably very different to the one that I started out with, and I think naturally, when most people start like a health journey where they end up isn't always necessarily where they start, and that's the whole part of the process isn't it, is that you learn as you go along, when you make mistakes and you learn from those and then you're able to do things differently. So I think that it wasn't as though I started this and got it right first time. I really don't think I did. I started posting on Instagram. When I was at college, I trained as a dancer and went to a place called Bird College. And my dream was to go into musicals and be in the West End. And whilst I was at college, I very much recognized the importance of physical health, the importance of eating well and eating well to support my training. I was doing up to like eight hours of dancing a day. So it was very intense. And so I started to try and think a little bit more about that and take into account, you know, my first year of uni, I had eaten like a typical student and had pizza every night and lived off diet Coke and chocolate and all that stuff, which is fine. But when it comes....

Henrietta: The freedom you have, when you don't know!

Alice: Of course! In some ways that was great that I did that, but come the second year, it was really eye-opening that this career was ahead of me and I wanted to be successful, and so I knew that I kind of had to do something to really get myself to a place where I was able to sustain all the rehearsals that I was doing, all the hours of dancing. So I started going to the gym. Um, weight training was becoming quite popular then, and particularly, you know, it was the time of like, obviously, you know, Joe Wicks, but there's another person called Kayla Itsines, and that kind of crowd, and it was sort of starting to be quite popular for women to lift weights and to weight train. So I started doing that and changing my diet and where I started was very different to where I am now. So it was very restrictive, it was very kind of protein and vegetables and not very many carbs, and really sort of trying to be as small as possible in my attempt with everything that I was doing. So with the exercise with the diet

Henrietta: and Alice, was that all with the focus as well of it supporting the, the physical end goals, so in terms of supporting, as you say, aesthetically, how you might look, but also the physical aspect of having energy and stamina, rather than necessarily the psychological support that eating well and living well can bring.

Alice: Yeah. I mean, absolutely. If you asked me then, I would have said I'm doing this for performance reasons, but actually deep down was I actually doing it for performance reasons? no, I wasn't. So I think it was a bit twofold, but in my head I genuinely thought it was, and I was like, if I do these things and naturally my body changed a lot and I got loads of compliments and people were telling me I look amazing, and suddenly I was getting the lead part in my second year musical and all these things started to happen for me. And so my brain went, well, I've changed my body and I'm in a really small body now, and I have a six pack and I look a certain way. My success must be because I've changed how I look. And so cue, you know, a couple of years of really disordered eating and not realizing maybe that that was what I was doing. You know, absolutely now with hindsight, I'm able to look back and be like, oh my God, I can't believe I ever did that. But at the time I thought I was the picture of health. So it's interesting how we learn, like I said, when we go through these journeys and these, these, um, experiences, but yeah, where I am now is having gone through that and been able to reflect and learn that actually that's probably not the best way to do things and actually coming to a place of balance and living my life and actually having enjoyment with things like food and with exercise, rather than just seeing them as things that are there to keep me in a very small body is where I'm at now.

Henrietta: And what I would say is certainly from somebody who has followed your work, I think that your experience, and it sounds like it would have had, I mean, I'm sure it didn't happen overnight because you know, there's a lot that needs to be experienced and processed psychologically and mentally, when we move from a disordered eating pattern into a more balanced eating pattern. But I think what your experience can bring is a huge amount of reality and honesty to those that you are talking to on your platform, and I think that's what I really love about your ethos is, is exactly that. Can you share with us what that tipping point was for you when you realised, actually, because you know, we are fed in our culture and in our environment, a lot of information that would make us think that that more ascetic approach was important. What for you was it, what was the tipping point that made you realize actually this is unsustainable for me and it's not the path that I want to continue down?

Alice: I'd say there are a number of things. I would say there wasn't a particular catalyst. I think it was a number of things that happened. I would say the first thing was losing my period and not having a regular cycle for a few months. You know, the first month went by and I was like, nothing to worry about, carry on. Second month went by, still nothing to worry about, and a few months went by and it was like, I just sort of stopped thinking about it. And it got to the point where I was, I think I sort of 25 and I was starting to think about my fertility, about getting older, and I just thought, actually, I don't think this is normal. I think I need to go and see someone and, cue seeing a number of different specialists, and eventually, actually it was my GP who was amazing, and I still credit her with this; she was like, Alice you're underweight. The reason why you're not having a period is because you need to eat more. And she really had a really good conversation. I mean, it wasn't as brutal as that, but, but it was, um, it was what I needed to hear because no one had actually said that to me before, you know, I'd been diagnosed with PCOS and I've been told I had this and told I had that. And no one ever actually said, well, hang on a second, how much exercise are you doing? And what's your body fat percentage? And are those two things connected? And is that why you're not having a period? So that was the first thing. The second thing was, you know, I've been with my partner for five years and he has a very like full social life, and I started, you know, when we got together, I'd gone from like being very selfish and being able to be like, you know, going to the gym whenever I wanted and filling all my time with exercise and with working and with, you know, I was, I wasn't with anyone else so I could eat whatever I wanted when I was at home, and it was very controlled. You know, suddenly when someone else's in your life and you're seeing them go out for drinks with friends and go out for dinners and go out for this and that, and I was like, I want that, you know, I've lived such a controlled and measured life, and actually, like, these things are the things that actually bring me joy and like, do I really want to hold myself back from doing those things just so that I can stay in a smaller body? Well no! So it's kind of a number of things. I think as well, just getting a bit older and realizing that you can't sustain the level of exercise and the diet that you could maybe, even when I was 21, when I was 25, you know, I can't do what I did then, now. Your body changes and it needs different things as you get older. And, and now as a trainer, I know that inside out, but it was a number of things and it was a slow and gradual process, but definitely one that helped me to get to a much, much better place.

Henrietta: Yeah, and it sounds like it. It seems like it was also a very liberating process of being able to let go of that control to a degree.

Alice: I think liberating but also like massively challenging because when you're in a body that everyone tells you is amazing and you're wearing size six, size eight clothes, and then suddenly those don't fit you anymore. And you're actually you're changing shape and you're having to deal with all of those changes. Like that's a very complex process to go through. And one that I still find difficult at times. I was only speaking this week about how, just because I'm in a different body now to the one I was in, then it doesn't mean that I've got it nailed. You know, I still have days where I feel really challenged by body image, by confidence, by my changing shape clothes, not fitting, all that stuff like that still bothers me; not as much as it used to, but it does still come and go. And I think it's important never to feel that you can sort of arrive at a place where you're like, I just love myself, you know, I'm, I'm definitely not there. I'm, I'm not where I was, but I'm also not at that place of, I just don't care what anyone thinks, I love myself. I don't know if that's necessarily realistic for a lot of women. I think we have to deal with a changing body constantly, even just month to month as you go through your cycle. And it's like, if you can't learn to just be kind to yourself and accept who you are in the changing shape and whatever that you are, you're in a bad place. But also I'm not expecting myself to get to like feeling 10 out of 10 every day, cause I also don't think that's realistic.

Henrietta: Absolutely, and there lies the complexity of being a human being, and I think having that deep, deep sense of peace, about who you are and, and I mean that on a physical and a much wider level, actually can be a lifetime's work for many, and we now know, you know, there is no mind and body. We are one and everything that we are thinking and feeling is reflected in our body as well, so we can wake up one day and feel, very aligned and other times not, feeling scratchy and uncomfortable in your own skin, and that is the beauty and complexity of being human. What I think is great is that there are more people beginning to talk more honestly about that as well of which I would include you in that. And so thank you for all of that incredible honesty just then. So the place that you come to now, how would you describe balanced for you now in your life?

Alice: If I'm honest, I would describe it as not thinking too much about it. Particularly when the word balance came around, it was like, people almost wanted to know exactly what that formula was, and I don't think you can package up balance because I think balance will look different to everyone. But for me personally, it's actually thinking a lot less about every meal and every workout, every aspect of health. I think it's more trying to find the enjoyment in the things that bring good health. I would never say that exercise isn't important and eating well isn't important, like those things do matter to me. I really do believe that they should make up a large part of our lives, but I don't think they're things that we should obsess over. I think they're things that will come and go in terms of how important they are to us at different times of our lives. So for me, balance is very much eating foods that I enjoy both nutritious and a little bit less nutritious. Seeking to move my body for how it makes me feel, ie, the mental health benefits, ie, it makes me feel empowered and strong and it makes me feel energized. You know, all the positive things that exercise does rather than just seeing it as, oh my God, I've eaten a cake, so therefore I need to go to the gym and burn it off. Like that's, that's a mindset that I will no longer ever subscribe to. Things like sleep, you know, making time for things that I know make me feel good. Sleep is super important to me. I am ritualistic in terms of when I go to bed, like, my boyfriend will agree, but for me, it's like, it's one of those things that I know if my sleep is on point, everything else will be a little bit better. Um, you know, simple things like walking every day, meditation, listening to podcasts, socializing is a huge part of what balance looks like to me. I think, engaging with other people. If COVID taught me anything, it's that I love connection, human connection, and I need that to make me feel good. So I think for a long, long time health and balance, and all of these words have been minimized to such black and white things that people want the answer, they want the formula. And I sort of say, well, it's not that simple and it's not that black and white. It's very complex. It's very nuanced and it will look different to everyone. And for me, I think mine is always fluctuating as well. Things are more of a priority, things are less of priority depending on where I am in my life and my gear and whatever. So yeah, I think balance is about being chill with all of that and thinking about it a lot less than I used to.

Henrietta: Yeah I mean everything that you've said completely resonates with what I feel as well. I think that it is a very individual sense of balance and it can, balance changes from day to day. And ultimately, I think the only compass that you have is taking the time to really connect in and work out what it is that your body needs in that moment, in that day. And sometimes that will be more rest. Sometimes that will be more connection with others. And as soon as you can start to trust that internal connection, that little bit more.

Alice: Yeah. Completely agree. And don't you think that it's so interesting how we're often going outside for the answers. We're looking to like a nutritionist, a dietician, a personal trainer. Like these people matter, I'm not saying they don't, but also like there's something about trusting the voice within you and the kind of internal connection exactly as you just said, of like, "Am I hungry?". You know, even as simple as that, rather than getting a diet plan from someone just asking yourself, "Am I hungry?". " Am I thirsty?". "Am I tired?". "What do I need right now?" Asking yourself those questions is often actually more empowering than always going outside for the answers. Those roles and I'm a personal trainer, so I really believe they have a place as do all other healthcare practitioners. I think we all have a place, but I think in collaboration with someone actually starting to connect with themselves a little bit more, I think that's, that's the best place for someone to get to.

Henrietta: It's one of the founding principles for Wild as well, for Wild Nutrition. When I started, it was all very much about how yes, creating a product that was going to give people the opportunity to experience physical balance, but actually it's as much as that is giving the advice and support through knowledge so that people felt empowered to understand themselves a little bit more. And the encouragement to listen to themselves as well, because I think, I think there is that balance between, as you say, it's not too much reliance on the external guru because actually you are your best doctor, you know, yourself better than anybody and you were born with yourself. So, you know, anybody outside of that, or they can do is they can share their experience. Their wisdom, for you to then engage with and utilize in the way that works for you. It's all incredibly individual. So yeah, I fully agree with everything that you've said. The way you've come to sounds like a really beautiful place of balance between mind, body, and soul. Does that align with where the industry is now? How have you seen the industry change in the way that your personal experience has changed?

Alice: Yeah, I think that was a great question, and definitely, I think the industry has shifted a lot. You know, when I think back to even just five years ago, the industry, the fitness industry, the health and wellness space was so different to where it is now. And the changes have been almost entirely positive. People are not talking about balance, talking about, uh, mental wellbeing, talking about, less exercise actually, and more rest and the importance of rest. And that kind of no days off mentality is very much in the past. We're so much more aware now of what is good for us, and also that, like I said earlier, it's not just as simple as the food we eat and the exercise we do to get healthy and the equation is much more complex than that. So I think people are really starting to realize that. And also even just from like a visual perspective, the bodies, the magazine covers, the articles in the magazines and online, everything shifted and everything seems to be much more diverse, varied, balanced science led as well. You know, evidence-based, which I think is great. So yeah, I've definitely seen a big shift and it, you know, like I said, it's one that I feel is almost entirely positive. I still think we have further to go. I think there are still things that lag in the past and are quite outdated, but I think that on the whole, I feel that the industry is moving in a really great direction and I feel really positive about the changes that I've seen thus far.

Henrietta: How do you feel that that has been compounded by the last 12, 18 months experience that we've had globally? Has there been a greater call to action for supporting mental health and physical wellness one?

Alice: Yeah, absolutely. I, you know, if anything, I think that the COVID pandemic has, has accelerated the need for us to be talking about the importance of mental wellbeing and that, it's not just about the body that we exist in. For so long everything's been about the aesthetic. It's how we look. It's what clothes size we are. It's you know, how much exercise we do, and actually what I think the pandemic has done for us is actually to say, well, hang on a second, if this up here, I'm pointing to my head. Sorry, I realise it's a podcast!!

Henrietta: She points to head!!

Alice: Yeah! If your brain isn't in a good space, if your head isn't in a good space, then the body can't follow. You know, like both of them have to be working in, in harmony, and I think that COVID has made people realize that far more than ever before.

Henrietta: You are what you think, and I think one of the interesting things we could do a whole podcast on actually, is how is how we speak to ourselves internally. You know, the language that we use about striving, reaching, must, you know, drive. What I feel and see around me is that there are many people who have been living with that internal dialogue for years and years and years. And then, it's almost like these last 12, 18 months has pulled the rug from under them and now it's almost like a sense of kind of universal burnout where, actually strive, push, drive, reach, that language and that internal dialogue that we might have with ourselves, doesn't serve us anymore, actually. It's as you alluded to earlier, it's it's counter balancing that, and challenging ourselves is really important. A little bit of stress is really important and good and healthy for us, but it's always making sure that that is, counterbalanced with rest and nourishment and in whatever guise that might be on, on whatever level that might be, whether that's nutritionally or rest in terms of walking in nature or, or whatever it might be for you, but it is always making sure that that is counterbalanced.

Alice: I also think that it's it's really, I completely agree with everything you said, but I also think it's made people realise that, work is not life. Um, you know, suddenly we've all stepped away from the office or stepped away from our working environment. If I think back to my life prior to COVID I was living at like 110 miles an hour and it was like one thing to the next, the next, the next, because it was just filling myself with being as busy as possible. Uh, and when COVID happened and it was suddenly like, stay at home, like forced rest. I think people really realize that, hang on a second, like that level of pace. that I had been living out is no longer sustainable after COVID. And I think there are so many people who are saying that. Uh, and I agree with you in terms of this collective burnout that I think people are experiencing. I think it's both the emotional trauma of the last two years that I think none of us have really come to understand how much the last few years have affected people. You know, that constant state of low level anxiety is horrible for all of us to experience, no matter how privileged or unprivileged you are, we all experienced it in some capacity. But also that idea of the pace in which we lived in prior to COVID was one that I think most people now would agree was pretty unsustainable. And just learning to, to pull back a bit and to have a bit more of a work-life balance, to take time for yourself, to rest. All these things are way more important than ever before.

Henrietta: Absolutely. And I think actually that the amount of time that we've been exposed to that as well has been long enough for us to really more deeply search into what habits can I recreate for myself, that's going to give me a more sustainable way of, of living. We've just launched a vegan protein powder with super foods in them. And the formulation was created specifically for this. And I have to be honest, I put myself in as the consumer, as somebody who's taking a product, you have to. So it's very much led from, okay, well, you know, I feel, I feel that there is a really deep need for that renourishment actually, and that extra support, because I think, and I say this speaking as a woman, but we spend a lot of time having other people's backs. And actually the last 12 to 18 months has made a lot of people acutely aware of actually they're low on their own resource. And actually it's about really giving the body, the nourishment that it needs to be able to meet what the daily demands are because quite often there's a really big gap and there hasn't been a greater opportunity to really hold up the mirror and see that then what we've all been exposed to in this last 12 to 18 months. So bearing that in mind with being able to have that sort of slightly kind of inward-looking or how can I change my life? What would you say, would be your best tips on sustainable habits that we can, because obviously we're recording this in December and we'll be putting this live in January. And it's a time where conversations are about the new year, new you. The be slimmer, be better, be different. And actually. Can we please please change that rhetoric!

Alice: It's very outdated!

Henrietta: It's so outdated and actually there's nothing wrong with who you are. And it's about what are the balanced, sustainable habits that we can create for ourselves that are going to give us a sense of balance in our life?

Alice: Yeah, it's a really good question. I think that the first thing that I would say, and this is with my personal trainer hat on, is to rethink your thoughts around exercise basically. I think for so long people have seen exercise as they've got to be dripping with sweat. They've got to be working incredibly hard. It's got to be in a dark room with blaring music or in a gym lifting heavy weights.

Henrietta: Being shouted at!

Alice: Yeah, being shouted at. Oh God, yeah, that! I think that we're really learning that that is not all that exercise is. It's part of it, for sure. You know, there are some people who love that sort of stuff, but if we're really wanting people to develop a meaningful and longtime relationship with exercise, ie, one that is sustainable, I think a lot of people need to rethink what they previously thought about exercise. I'll take myself, for example. At school, I was never sporty. I hated PE. I was never on any sports teams. And so when I was growing up, it was like, well, sports, not really my thing. That is not true. There is something out there for everyone, even if it is as simple as walking. That is movement. And actually there's so many studies to support the benefit of walking in terms of its correlation to our physical health. So walking is great, but I think when we step back a little bit and start to understand, okay, exercise could be so many different things. It could be walking, running, cycling, swimming, yoga, pilates, climbing, hiking. All of these different things. There's got to be something in there that someone would enjoy. So rather than that punishing mindset of, oh, I've got to be doing this, or I've got to be going to this class that I hate, but I've got to do it, try and see it as a playful thing as something that you like, I'm going to look forward to doing something with movement. I can almost guarantee. I would say 99% of people, even if they're not really feeling it, when they start doing something with movement, by the end of it, they will feel even just a little bit better mentally, physically you will. It's not just me thinking that it's also the boost of endorphins, the stimulation of your lymphatic system. All these things are generated by exercise. And so I almost just want to encourage people to stop seeing exercise as something that they have to do and start to see it in a more fun and engaging way. What can I do that's going to move my body in a way that I enjoy? Try lots of different things, experience maybe different classes or different methods of moving and see if there's something that actually you do enjoy, that you end and go, "that wasn't that bad". It doesn't have to be dripping with sweat. In fact, it really doesn't need to be that at all, it can be, like I said, as simple as just doing a bit of yoga or doing some walking, but really starting to rethink your relationship with exercises where I would say that that kind of long-term sustainable approach comes in. And then outside of exercise, I would say, you know, when it comes to like long-term meaningful changes, it's really got to come from again, going back to what we were saying about that internal voice, asking yourself what you need. If you're able to step back from your life and say like, what are the areas that might need a little bit of tweaking? Previously. I know that mine has definitely been okay, I could have a better bedtime routine, that I'm not on my phone as much before bed, I go to sleep at a certain time to get up a certain time, you know, making that change was massive for me, and I felt so much better as a result of just changing that. And I know things like my diet for a long time was very, very, basic. And one of the things I challenged myself today was just have a bit more variety in each of my meals, different vegetables, different grains, you know, trying to have a mixture of colors. That's not counting calories or worrying about food. It's just actually, what more can I get onto my plate that's got loads of diversity? Cause that's not any good for myself, it's good for my gut health. It's good for, you know, just genuinely trying to get as many nutrients into your body so that was another thing. If you shift the mindset into a more positive way, there's actually a way in which you can make these changes without it feeling as though, oh, it's January and I'm going to have to change X, Y, and Z, and I'm going to feel awful, and it's only going to last a month, but here we go. I think that I always about the long-term things, the long-term strategies, the things that are going to last for the next 10 years. With my app, for example, I'm not doing anything different in January, because I think that everything I've been doing thus far is exactly how you should carry on doing things to have long-term results.

Henrietta: Yes, continue to build on it, yes, absolutely.

Alice: So I think that it's really important that people don't make these kind of grand gestures of changes, of trying to overhaul their diet in January, because nine times out of 10, I'd go back in a month's time, and that person would have not kept up with whatever it is that they tried to change. The success comes in those small tweaks, tiny, tiny things. You know what may be one change every week in January, one little change here, little change there. That's where long-term success lies.

Henrietta: I think that's such a brilliant point because that's actually evidence based as well. There's evidence that there's now been a body of research that's looked at. It's actually the power of consistent small things or small things done consistently, that really are the force of change. It's not, as you say the big things necessarily, they may become big things. They may end up with a significant shift, but actually it's engaging in those very small things, which I think were so maybe culturally sort of hood-winked into thinking of being very goal orientated and that kind of shining prize at the end. And you know, it's good to have, that, but it's also really, really important to go upstream and look at the small wins that you can be doing all the time. I think we're probably quite aligned in our philosophies here about, it's not about deprivation. It's always about what can you build on? What can you add? What can you add in that will be more nourishing, more beneficial. And everything that you've said, the word that comes to mind is flexibility really, moving away from a more rigid mindset and more rigid way of doing things and actually allowing more flexibility. And I know you mentioned that you've got your app. I'd love to share with our listeners a little bit more about what your app is.

Alice: Yeah, of course.

Henrietta: It's called 'Give Me Strength' isn't it ?

Alice: Yeah, it is. So I launched it in June, been amazing, so it's predominantly a fitness app, so it has different programs for whether you train at the gym or at home, depending on your goals as well. And then it also has me coaching you in real time. So we have over six months of real-time workouts, so you can do them along at home with me or at the gym. And all of it is focused around strength training. So something that I am very passionate about, is that, whilst I believe that people should always, you know, exercise in a way that makes them feel good and that they enjoy, I do think that some form of resistance training is really beneficial, particularly for women and particularly as we get older. Um, so just strengthening our musculoskeletal system, our bone density, all these things, really matter. So strength training is, is important, and so, the issue that I had prior to creating the app was that I think the barrier to entry for strength training can sometimes be a little bit higher. It's not the same as just lacing up your trainers and going for a run. It's like, you're not quite sure what to do, what dumbbells to lift, what exercises to do. So it was really about, I wanted to take anyone that joined the app, sort of under my wing and as if I was doing a session with them at Third Space where I see clients one-to-one and coach them through sessions each week. So, I was say that like at Third Space, I'm £85 an hour for a one hour session, on my app you get me five times a week for £16.99. So it is a, is a real bargain, but, you know, I'm there coaching and all the exercises with you, talking to you about form about the rep sets, all that sort of stuff. So you kind of don't have to think about what you're doing, it kind of gives you the whole program. And we work in four month challenges. So to keep it interesting, we do a full week block of training and then it changes every four weeks. So it keeps it interesting, it keeps our bodies getting stronger and progressing. And on top of that, we have over a hundred, but actually almost 200 now, different recipes. Uh, we have educational content from various different blog contributors, everyone from nutritionist, dieticians, sleep experts, uh, who else have we got, doctors, PTs. We've got a whole mix of stuff on there. That's pretty interesting. So yeah, it's been amazing and I'm so glad that I launched it.

Henrietta: Oh, fantastic. Because I think that one of the things that people can listen to us chatting away and saying, you know, get more color and get more diversity into your diet and do all these things, but actually doing that and knowing how to implement those and practical, you know, just simple things like easy recipes that they can start to engage in, can be the gap and can stop it actually being implemented. So that's, I know, offering a lot of people support and it sounds great. So Alice, it's been such a lovely conversation, a really inspiring conversation, and my gosh, you're an incredibly inspiring woman to talk to. And so much wisdom as a woman that is older than you, a comparatively young woman, huge amount of wisdom, which I think must come from the very honest experience that you spoke of at the beginning. And I think that's just makes it a very powerful position for you to be a positive influence to other people. Um, and I would just say, just to kind of summarize on the key things that I think you've given so many nuggets of gold and the things that really stand out for me are that you were saying, you know, how important, how you think, is to your wellbeing. So how you think about yourself, how you, how you approach movement, exercise, nutrition, whatever it might be is, is engaging in it in a positive nourishing way, rather than a deprivation punishing way. I think that's so powerful. And how important movement is, in any guise. So just getting some movement in every day and the and the power that that can bring to health and having within that, I guess also having that flexibility over rigidity in, in way of thinking, but also in the body, you know, they say that certainly in terms of yoga is a flexible body, brings a flexible mind. So, um, I love that. And then importantly, which I think cuts across everything is listening to your inner voice, listening to you, connecting to you and responding accordingly to what your body and mind need at that, at that point. Just so many things that you've shared with us, and I'm so grateful for the conversation that we've had. And I wish you all the best with everything with 'Give Me Strength', with everything that you're doing and continue to do such a cracking job.

Alice: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thanks, such a great interview.